Curse

countesscorpula · Apr 06, 2007, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

To the PvE necros.

Now you feel the pain of what it's like to need energy management.1 Is this a big nerf? Yes. Soul Reaping was completely broken. I personally thin that 5 seconds is plenty of time. Imagine getting even 10 energy every 5 seconds...that would be 6 extra pips of energy.2 Without using a skill.3
If there is a spirit spammer or MM,...4
PS: Soul Reaping has some good energy management skills.1 So do other lines. So does Glyph of lesser energy.

Edit: Bold Numbers Added by Countess to make the reply easier to track.

Let's see if we can't illuminate some of this here.

Number 1
Necros had a system of energy management, it was called Soul Reaping. A Primary attribute with NO core skills, NO Prophecies skills, and a wopping total of 5 skills from Fac and NF. For the most part, the only reason to put energy into soul reaping is the innate energy gain. Soul reaping has 2, that's right 2 skills that can assist in the gain of energy. So please don't try to imply that there is a wealth of alternatives there. And if a player was unable to buy NF (just imagine that there are some out there) these 2 skills are unavailable to them.

Number 2
You are assuming that there will actually be a gain every 5 seconds, and that that gain will be for the full value of SR. Oddly enough, the bad guys in PvE don't do a very good job of dieing according to a strict every 5 second schedule. more often then not, a clump of 3 or 4 will die in a five second span, and about 10-15 seconds later another clump of 3 or 4 will die. So one is more likely to get a return of 20 energy from an entire mob, rather than the bad guys all lining up and dieing at 5 second intervals to provide a steady 6 pips of energy generation of a 40 second period. Straight numbers don't always give the truth if you don't factor in the variables. Not to mention that if a spirit trigger SR before a body, you've cut that gain in half.

Number 3
Expertise provides excellent energy management without using a skill(and there are other examples too).
Unskilled energy management is nothing new, nor anything strange. This energy management is fueled by something just as precious as skills - attribute points. You get a finite number of skill slots, an even more finite number of elite skill slots, and you get a finite number of attribute points. In many attributes, these points are used to improve a wide variety of skills that the character will be using. In the case of Soul Reaping, this is not so much true. I'm darned sure that it is currently impossible to fill a skill bar with SR skills - but you can do that with Strength for example.

A character without points in their primary attribute is not realizing the proper potential of that profession.
Every profession has something relatively unique, if not completely unique, that lends itself to a certain style of play. Those who like to shout "ZOMG look at the uber size of my energy pool!!!" can dump as many points as they like into the energy storage attribute (though the smart folks know there is a certain sweet spot that may be slightly less than max capacity). Likewise those who like to be the fastest draw this side of the Shiverpeaks can max out their Fast Cast attribute(which also has a sweet spot that some know is definately below max). Soul reaping is for those who enjoy a style of play that doesn't require them to obsess and measure every little exendature of energy. Remember, each profession appeals to a different style of play, and simply because that style of play is not your cup of tea, does not make it an any less valid or enjoyable style of play.

And Finally, Number 4
Though recently you may have seen a large number of "spirit spammers" and MM accompanying large numbers of necros in PvP, this is an unheard of occurance in PvE. I suppose this can be brought down to the fact that PvP is enclosed in a confined fighting environtment, while PvEers are (with rare mission exceptions) constantly on the go. Spirit Spammers are fairly ineffective in PvE. Most PvE ritualists don't pack a large number of spirits, a philosophy backed up by James Phinney on Pg 24 of the PC Gamer article. It's just impractical for a moving party to have a large number of skills that are rooted to a location. So once again, in actual practice, this doesn't work out quite the way some people seem to be picturing it.

I'm going to go experiment in a few other PvE environments before I publish my final opinoin on the matter. In the mean time, i suggest folks examine the practical fall out of this change, rather than crunch numbers that exist in a sterilized vacuum environment.

PS, thanks to those who came along for the tests I was running in various missions. Sorry we didn't make masters in the recent run of Vizunah...just one minute shy. I've never missed it with my necro before. Something must have changed.

Skyros · Apr 06, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by tknorris

In PvE mobs generally die all at the same time. For example, in DOA the goal is to kill all mobs at one time such that they are no aggro breaks. Teams go to GREAT lengths to ensure this happens (synced nukes, EOE, corner blocking, ec.) This change absolutely screws the necro in that situation!

The two most common builds used by Necro (other than MM) are FOC and SS. Usually one string of casts (SS, RH, DE, DE or Suffering, FOC, DE, DE) completely drains the necro's energy and the only hope you have of getting it back is mobs dying. Now, if they all die at once, you get basically 10 or so energy from the whole batch! Leaving the necro completely unable to be prepared for the next group.

This change is just plain stupid. I'm so sick on PvP issues screwing PvE I could puke. If it's broken in PvP, and not PvE, then fix PvP and leave PvE alone.

If truly the only way to fix Necro Healers is this 5 second thing then make this it apply only in PvP. There are already game mechanics that work differently in PvP (e.g. can't remove armor) why not this?

The main point here is that more than just MM's are drastically affected by the change in Soul Reaping and reducing the cost of a couple of minion spells doesn't fix the issue.

^ no denying this guy's logic. I completely agree with norris.

berlioz7 · Apr 06, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Zenrgy, you must work for nerfnet....

ZenRgy · Apr 06, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

Something I noticed pre-SR nerf, I had excess energy from it being triggered so much.

Bring a decent amount of soul reaping and you can spam your skills on recharge.

Return soul reaping to trigger with no delay on creature kills, 0 from spirits and half from minions.

Jadi Lontres · Apr 06, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I am shocked an surprised about this Soul Reaping nerf, I never had a problem with this and never will until now. Yes it is nerfed to be balanced but why wait that long to fix it and how many people were complaining? Not once have I seen people (pre-SR nerf) complain about the primary attribute. There has to be a reason. From what I tested so far:

1.With my MM, I have to re-focus on the skills I use, before, I often raise my minions to ten and then bomb them when I need energy, kill mobs faster or just plain health (taste of death and feast for the dead comes to mind) which is helpful. Since the nerf, I can't rely on SR anymore and I have to rely on other factors like Signet of Souls which at 14 points in SR (runes), I only get 9 energy.
2. As a blood necro, BIP/BR build takes energy and when done right, I still have enough for the short-term but I have to wait a little longer to regain naturally. That IMO becomes problematic when you are on a timed mission or plainly fighting strong mobs. Offering of Blood makes it impossible to carry if you are running BIP but that is my alternative to deflect the SR nerf though the 20% sac is bad

.
3. I did not see much of a problem with SS, since I do not spam SS to kill the mobs, I do not have to worry much about my energy issues. I just need to time my attacks right to keep my energy at optimum.

I think MMs and Blood necs are more affected by this nerf because they rely heavily on SR for energy regain. There's always a way around it as I have found and it takes time to find new ways to get energy fast. I would like to know the reason for this all over nerf. I understand in PVP that it has to be more manageable and balanced, but in PVE, there's many different environments that may end up causing the necro more problems than it could be solved.

Alex Morningstar · Apr 06, 2007, 07:52 AM // 07:52

My guildies and I ran a 8-man necro team to FoW out of spite. As the Necro Prot-monk, I was spamming (and crying at the lack of divine favor) but not really noticing any energy problems, nothing that warranted any difference in game play. We had several different builds, monks, a tank, spikers, SV and SS and no one really had much issues.

Our problems came in the form of having a team consisting on 8 necros. :P Almost completed the forge quest tho, was crazy fun.

ss1986v2 · Apr 06, 2007, 08:09 AM // 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jadi Lontres

I am shocked an surprised about this Soul Reaping nerf, I never had a problem with this and never will until now. Yes it is nerfed to be balanced but why wait that long to fix it and how many people were complaining? Not once have I seen people (pre-SR nerf) complain about the primary attribute. There has to be a reason.

ill take a stab in the dark and say you dont pvp do you? not a knock or a flame, just asking. in pvp, soul reaping was being abused by mostly spirits. a constant stream of dying spirits = never ending pool of energy = very imbalanced. thats the primary reason for the change.

as for the MM, ive had no problems with it thus far. 12 SR seems to supply enough energy to get the job done. yes, you end up with a couple less fiends, but keeping a mass of 10 minions is no harder now than before. the only difference is that you cant always exploit a corpse as soon as something dies, and your energy isnt constantly topped off. neither of these things being of any major importance though.

Heaven is a Lie · Apr 06, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

if 1/2 was a lot they could have tried 1/3 instead making such a drastic change imo

countesscorpula · Apr 06, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Does-it-Matter

Summed up ... Many thoughtful and well presented ideas about Minion Masters, and ideas that Arena Net may have towards minion masters.

Well, said. Please pardon my summarizing.

BUT not all Necromancers are Minion Masters. And if this change is intended to address MMs, as you suggest, there is clearly some unwanted and uncomfortable fall out to other concepts of the Necromancer. I believe that this is the source for much of the bile rising in the Necromancer ranks.

mystic fatality · Apr 06, 2007, 09:45 AM // 09:45

i personally think is is a stupid nerf... we need to learn nrg management and suffer for it? thats one of the stupidest things i've ever heard, minions are nrg exstensive and require so much nrg its not like we have nrg management spell like elementalists (which is another nrg intensive class) or have the 100 nrg that they have. and if we have to have to add nrg management skills that kills the effectiveness of the build, i personally run 4 minion spells, fleshy, vamp horror, shambling horror, and bone fiend, i run this many to raise minions fast so i have an active spell recharged to raise a minion while others charge. so after 4 spells i use spells to keep myself alive, dark bond, healing breeze, healing circle and for minions blood of the master. where would i have room for nrg management spells and still be effective? next they needed to be nerfed so their more supportive and not so domanant? no they never were domanant, even use them as a solo is hard. you take alot of the harder quests in factions or especially nf with places like the underworld or elite mish like urgoz warren you can't keep minions alive and you need to constantly raise minions to even prove your worth to the party other than that minions are just distractions in situations like that with no real killing power especially now with out constant numbers. one of the most important things about it is when you raise an 11th minion so that one dies normally you get the nrg from ur minion dying which was a nice recycled boost now you can't nor can you keep raising to help the party much at all. if the nerf has to stay at least make the minons lvl 20+ so the pathetic lvl 18s don't die so fast and serve lil to no purpose as they do now cause you can't keep raising them so easily. they so low lvl the numbers of them make a difference but now that its harder to keep up numbers mm builds are so nerfed its not worth having in a party, and the necro fans will be really upset. this also hurts pro mm builds such as variations of death bomber taking the idea of creating lots of minions sending them into a group of nmes with death nova on them and destroying them. builds like this are no easy task for non experienced players and adds a fun challenging spin on having a mm build. i believe this hurts mainly mm and we all no mm are mainly a pve build and soul reaping serves no real purpose in pvp so i think it was a pointless nerf that just makes pple mad. any real pvp build just puts its extra points in soul reaping so its only like lvl 1-3 and isn't relied on, if a build in pvp does rely on this they don't know what they are doing. so bascally this nerf just effects the enjoyability and effectiveness of being a necro in pve. i believe its nerfs like this that kill something thats been fine for ages and gets players upset at developers and causes them to leave, it happens to every game i've played. developers mess it up and lose loyal players cause they don't listen. i've seen multimillion player games go to 20-100 pple on at a given time, so sad... i should start looking for a diff game if this is anet showing true colors.

Faer · Apr 06, 2007, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Don't you think it's idiotic you have to rely on another profession's skill list to be able to keep your energy up?
I for one do.

Synergy says "Hello!".

Learn to diversify, please, before making comments that will only serve to get you heavily flamed by people who already have.

More to the point, I've done some personal Necromancer testing with various builds in both PvE and PvP since the balance, and while some builds are much less viable (read: spirit****ting in PvP isn't so hot anymore), it didn't really have a drastic effect on my energy management. Then again, I manage my energy actively, rather than passively (as in relying on an attribute and my team to do the work for me), so that could have influenced my "results", so to speak.

xFriedEyedx · Apr 06, 2007, 10:09 AM // 10:09

I just want anet to answer me 1 question. I don't give 2 @#$% about PvP. But if you want to fix that crap why don't you just do what is suggested? Spirits and minions. WHY???? I never heard not 1 PvE player ever say" gee i have to much energy i think anet should nerf it". I am so sick an tired of of PvE getting Bent over by PvP gripes. We don't care about PvP. So fix it to shut the whiners up in PvP and LEAVE US ALONE! SPIRITS AND MINIONS. It won't be anymore difficult to code. Thats what these code writers are paid for right. I mean wheres my money for 3 collectors editions and a few extra editions for another account and 5 extra character slots going? Man, if its a man power issue hire me. I hope you read this anet and fix this. LEAVE PvE ALONE!!

Does-it-Matter · Apr 06, 2007, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

Well, said. Please pardon my summarizing.

BUT not all Necromancers are Minion Masters. And if this change is intended to address MMs, as you suggest, there is clearly some unwanted and uncomfortable fall out to other concepts of the Necromancer. I believe that this is the source for much of the bile rising in the Necromancer ranks.

I appreciate your comments. I know I mainly portrayed the post with a bent towards MM, but that was for two main reasons.

1) I wanted to keep it as PvE-orientated as possible (meaning not mention PvP as many can tell you Soul Reaping has many out of proportion advantages)

2) Since I had the insight into the big picture with Minion Masters.

But as I've currently mentioned in the "petition" thread, even the non-MM builds aren't bad off. Only the ones that attempt to spam high energy spells unchecked are feeling the drain.

Yes, Necros can/should use high energy spells, but with moderation or energy-management skills.

Faer · Apr 06, 2007, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by xFriedEyedx

I mean wheres my money for 3 collectors editions and a few extra editions for another account and 5 extra character slots going?

Maintaining the servers you don't pay a mandatory monthly fee to play on.

xFriedEyedx · Apr 06, 2007, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

Maintaining the servers you don't pay a mandatory monthly fee to play on.

Maybe they should have thought of that b4 not charging a monthly FEE. I'll pay it. If that means they do something right for a change. Oh and thx for that lovly smartass remark.

ZenRgy · Apr 06, 2007, 11:08 AM // 11:08

It's true though.

Llint · Apr 06, 2007, 11:13 AM // 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by xFriedEyedx

Maybe they should have thought of that b4 not charging a monthly FEE. I'll pay it. If that means they do something right for a change. Oh and thx for that lovly smartass remark.

Maybe you should respect ANet for the good job that everyone seems not to appreciate? Just because necromancers cant spam every spell under the sun anymore, doesn't mean they suck, cant do anything or otherwise useless anymore. Believe it or not, my heroes still use SS and a MM. I had their status bars open and they never dropped below 20. This update is like an xmas present to me. I love it.

Faer · Apr 06, 2007, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by xFriedEyedx

Maybe they should have thought of that b4 not charging a monthly FEE. I'll pay it. If that means they do something right for a change. Oh and thx for that lovly smartass remark.

Well, seeing as how what I sad was simply the truth, I hardly see how it was a "smartass remark"... You're quite welcome, though. However, perhaps you are forgetting (or were simply not aware) that ArenaNet always intended to fund the servers with the profits from the games (and then later the character slots). So really, your statement makes very little sense...

Besides, the change to Soul Reaping wasn't "wrong". It may not fit into your plans for the game, but it did fit into their plans for the game, and seeing as how it is their game, they can do with it what they wish. It hasn't really hurt PvE that much (except for those that absolutely refuse to change any little aspect about the way they play to adapt to inevitable changes), and it's fixed an extremely broken aspect of PvP. Personally, I'd say that's doing something "right".

You paid for some software out of a box, and you've gotten close to two years worth of free updates with it. Again, I'd say they are doing something "right" there, though in all honesty, they could charge for all of these updates, if they wanted to. Essentially, just calm down, cool off for a few days, and when you are feeling better, change a skill or two and go back along your merry way. Changes are part of life, and even video games. If you're going to get overly upset about changes in a game, then maybe you need to prioritize better.

Effendi Westland · Apr 06, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

So sad that now other classes can perform the job of spamming curses better.

An ele/necro can now manage its energy better then a necro, especially because soul reaping only seems to trigger twice per mob.

A mesmer/necro with high devotion into inspiration and auspicious incantation can also spam curses better.

Ok, the stat won't be maxed, but that is compensated by actually being able to do what the necro was ment for: spam curses.

Me/N SS lfg FoW (better then any necro)!!

MrTickle · Apr 06, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

I've just done an extensive test this morning in different areas with my blood/curses necro. My conclusion is this nerf has RUINED my PvE necro experience.

Only getting 6 energy back once every 5 seconds is useless! I constantly have to wait to cast especially now for some unknown reason Reckless Haste costs an extra 5 en. This nerf is a piss take. IF I wanted to constantly wait for energy then I'd play my useless mesmer instead. Just because PvP players abuse SR it's not right you should ruin it for PvE players. Simply remove energy gain from spirits and put it back to how it was.

So now Anet have ruined 2 of my favorite chars which is next?